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jerome68
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:52 am 
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Walnut
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Hi, I am new to this forum and delighted to have found it. I am in the process of repairing a 1918 Vega cylinder back mandolin. It is in excellent condition but the original oil finish is blistered and flaking on the back. I realize oil will not "melt in" as does laquer or shellac and was wondering if anybody has any sugestions as to how to repair and preserve the original finish. The customer is a pro musician and wants to play this instrument regularly as well as preserve it's vintage value and appeal. Any thoughts? Thanks.    
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Howard Klepper
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:40 am 
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Let it flake off and try to keep it clean.

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Michael Dale Payne
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:41 am 
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Jerome I am not an oil finish expert so I will not comment on the repair but rather just make this comment. As far as value for a vintage instrument goes unless in dire need of environmental protection the value of the mandolin is much greater with the original finish left in tack even with the blisters.
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SteveCourtright
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:52 am 
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Howard and Michael are right if you don't want to affect the value do not mess with the finish. Are you *sure* it is oil? I wonder if it is actually varnish.

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jerome68
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:57 am 
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[QUOTE=MichaelP]Jerome I am not an oil finish expert so I will not comment on the repair but rather just make this comment. As far as value for a vintage instrument goes unless in dire need of environmental protection the value of the mandolin is much greater with the original finish left in tack even with the blisters.[/QUOTE]


I agree. However, the finish is about 90% complete with the blisters. It will shortly be reduced to 30% after several sessions. (Very flakey)If no acceptable solution can be found, I will have to reccomend Mr. Keppler's advice.  
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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:59 am 
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That is not an oil finish.   It's probably straight shellac, French polished or brushed on, though it could be either a spirit varnish (shellac plus additives) or oil varnish over shellac.   Most of the late 19th and early 20th century Boston instruments were shellac.   I've got a pile of them.   Repairing with French polish is the least wrong thing you can do...which in restoration-speak means use French polish; it's the right thing to do. I think preserving the instrument and going ahead and restoring with finish with FP is totally ethical under these circumstances, and if it's done right, it will actually enhance the value.


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jerome68
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:11 am 
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[QUOTE=SteveCourtright]Howard and Michael are right if you don't want to affect the value do not mess with the finish. Are you *sure* it is oil? I wonder if it is actually varnish.[/QUOTE]


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jerome68
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:22 am 
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[QUOTE=Rick Turner]That is not an oil finish.   It's probably straight shellac, French polished or brushed on, though it could be either a spirit varnish (shellac plus additives) or oil varnish over shellac.   Most of the late 19th and early 20th century Boston instruments were shellac.   I've got a pile of them.   Repairing with French polish is the least wrong thing you can do...which in restoration-speak means use French polish; it's the right thing to do. I think preserving the instrument and going ahead and restoring with finish with FP is totally ethical under these circumstances, and if it's done right, it will actually enhance the value. [/QUOTE]


I have ruled out shellac, as alcohol has no effect whatsoever on the finish. An oil varnish is quite probable. This Vega has a sprayed on sunburst for the back and sides and is covered with this "problem" mystery clearcoat.  
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Howard Klepper
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:27 am 
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Shellac at that age can be so cross-linked that it is very hard to dissolve in alcohol.

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jerome68
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:07 am 
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[QUOTE=Howard Klepper]Let it flake off and try to keep it clean.[/QUOTE]


I believe that in light of the complexities of this task, I will do the repair work and pass on Howards advice on the finish. Thank you all for your replies.



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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:10 am 
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The mania for keeping totally screwed up finishes all original is just nuts.   Proper finish restoration should be considered part of preserving the underlying instrument.
I'd love to see 100 years into the future and know what folks will do then with all the mid 20th century nitro-finished instruments with the finish totally gone...which it will be.
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Michael Dale Payne
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:49 am 
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Rick,

even though I answered counter to your opinion because the collection experts always as leave original finish alone unless the instrument is in environmental danger, I have to say I do agree with you.

I personally look at it this way. If the instrument is going in a museum where it can be tended to then leaving the finish alone is probably a good idea form the historic aspect. But if the instrument is going to be in use as a musical instrument, then a proper restoration finish is much more logical. Now I would do a proper restoration to the type finish of its vintage but making the instrument usable is a great idea in my mind and dang the collectors for pure collecting sake.

I hope who ever the owner is is a musician that wants to play it.
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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:33 am 
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The guitar collection experts have their heads "where the sun don't shine" on a lot of this stuff.   While original finish may be a big issue on antiques that see little handling or that can be protected in the wear area, it's not for collectibles like automobiles.   What gives with that?   What gives is that guitars, like autos, cannot be used without significant wear. So if you're going to use it, certain parts and the finish are going to wear. Brakes, clutch, tires, battery, oil....Strings, frets, nut, saddle, etc...   

Guitar collectors have really managed to screw things up with their utter mania for everything original. They take the instruments completely out of the realm of being instruments and attempt to turn them into works of art...and they are not with a few exceptions.   Most of the highly collectible guitars are factory craft objects made in multiples to be used as tools of the musicians' trade.

Are you not going to reset the neck on a screwed up '38 Martin because that ruins the original glue? Are you not going to refret the guitar when it needs it?   Why not repair or restore the finish, particularly one that is apparently not very good?

The beauty of French polish is that it can be successfully touched up over the years, and it can be used over any antique finish without ruining what's underneath.   I've done major restorative work on old, highly collectible guitars, for instance a 1953 D'Angelico, using drop fill shellac and French polish, and that was a guitar once rebound by Bob Benedetto.   The alternative was to leave the think looking and feeling like utter crap.

I think the "don't touch the finish" pendulum has swung too far, and though I'm not a major fan of overspray and lacquer retouching, I do think that French polish makes for a conservation-grade solution to old instrument finish problems.   And it's reversable...
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jerome68
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:23 am 
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[QUOTE=MichaelP]Rick,

even though I answered counter to your opinion because the collection experts always as leave original finish alone unless the instrument is in environmental danger, I have to say I do agree with you.

I personally look at it this way. If the instrument is going in a museum where it can be tended to then leaving the finish alone is probably a good idea form the historic aspect. But if the instrument is going to be in use as a musical instrument, then a proper restoration finish is much more logical. Now I would do a proper restoration to the type finish of its vintage but making the instrument usable is a great idea in my mind and dang the collectors for pure collecting sake.

I hope who ever the owner is is a musician that wants to play it.[/QUOTE] Yes, the owner is is a fine musician and will play this beautiful sounding mandolin. I am also somewhat saddened by the "museum" mindset of collectors and investors (who very often are not musicians) in the aspect that some of the most remarkable instruments that have been in my shop will never be enjoyed by anyone. However, as you all know, These folks are great customers and at least we (luthiers and repairmen) can appreciate them while they are with us.  
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Howard Klepper
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:54 am 
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The words "preserve its vintage value and appeal" appeared in the original question. That takes the answer into what the collectors want, and the safest advice is to do nothing. Speaking of reversable, doing nothing and keeping it clean is about as reversable as you can get if someone wants the finish retouched later on. The present owner apparently just wants to play it and not hurt its value.

I personally am with those who think the preservationist mindset has gone quite a bit too far. I've done repairs that kept an instrument alive and in service, but I won't talk about them because they could offend someone who treats originality as their shibboleth. I don't need the grief. Actually, I think there is a substantial chance that in 100 years, keeping original old instruments around will seem comedic in light of the real disasters people (those who survive) will be dealing with.

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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:39 am 
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Player/collectors cannot have it both ways.   Either they play the things and have them fixed and kept up as needed, or they put 'em in a glass case.   "Collectible" instruments with screwed up finishes have already lost value as there are examples of ones with good finishes, so why not preserve them as they do with old master paintings?
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FishtownMike
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:30 am 
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I have a bunch of early banjo's, mandolins and ukes from all around the twenties and thirties. I got most of these from the likes of ebay and a couple from yard sales. No true collectors items here but still antiques. Most of them had flaking bubbly finish that were just falling off as you atempted to play them so yes i stripped all of them down and refinished them. I was supprised of the beauty of some of the wood that was hidden under the crappy old finish. Some purest would get upset by me refinishing them though i dont care what they think. I bought them i own them and now i'm very happy playing them.

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Colin S
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:34 am 
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As some of you know I do repair work on historic stringed instruments for four major instrument museums. The idea is to restore the instruments, if at all possible, to playing condition. Current thinking for these valuable instruments (E.G. Venere Archlute C.$150000) is to repair the finish, but as Rick said with shellac as that can later be easily removed if a better process is devised. Restoring the finish better preserves the fabric of the instrument underneath.

Besides, most of the time I'm taking off grotty old treacle finishes that previous generation of 'restorers' have trowelled on!

Colin

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